Q&A

It's Time to See Beyond the Sun and Fun of the Caribbean

Anthony Bryan is a native of Trinidad. He earned his Ph.D. from UNL in 1970 in Latin American History. After that he taught at the University of Rhode Island, Georgetown, the University of Texas, Indiana University and the University of Geneva in Switzerland. He also taught and was director of the Institute of International Relations in Trinidad at the University of the West Indies. When he returned to the United States in 1990 he became a senior fellow to the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in Washington, one of the major think tanks in the country. Currently he is director of the North-South Center at the University of Miami another think tank primarily focused on Latin America. Bryan spoke at UNL recently as part of the Thompson Forum on World Issues. Jim Ballard, from the UNL Office of Public Relations interviewed Bryan for the UNL News Service. Following are excerpts from that conversation.

Ballard: I assume when most people in this country think of the Caribbean, we think of white sand beaches, resorts and that beautiful sea water. But there is much more to the Caribbean than that, isn't there?

Bryan: I think that generally the Caribbean is an unfamiliar place for Americans, except as tourists, but we're dealing with a series of countries. There are probably 37 countries in the Caribbean region, a number of them islands, with very diverse economies at various stages of development. Generally they're a series of middle income countries that have significant levels of sovereignty and are much more than just beaches, sun and sand. So it's a very complex region, that, as I said, Americans do not know very well, although it's their closest neighbor and regarded as a fifth border of the United States.

Ballard: Is there a wide margin between those countries which are successful and those which are not?

Bryan: Yes and no. Let's start with the question of size. Cuba is 44,000 square miles, approximately the size of Nebraska. It's a nation with all of the economic potential that you would ever want to see, bludgeoned with an embargo for the last 35 years. The result is that Cuba has not progressed economically. So here is possibly the richest island in the Caribbean, but at its present stage of development it's certainly not the best. Then you have a country like Haiti, which has suffered so many periods of dictatorship that it's just been punished economically by its own political system and political culture.

Then you can go to the other end of the scale to my own country, Trinidad and Tobago. You would be out of your mind to go to Trinidad as a tourist because it's all industry. For 1 million people in the state the size of Connecticut, you have a very high standard of living. Others fall somewhere in between. But, in general, if you look at the microeconomics statistics, you're talking about a region of the world that's relatively very well off. Now people who are not doing well in those societies are not doing well possibly because small countries are beautiful, but there is a limit to their economic expansion. If their populations begin to exceed their resources, then they're prime candidates for immigration, and in this case primarily for the United States. So it's a mixed bag.

Ballard: Give me a good definition of the Caribbean beyond just saying there are 37 countries in that region.

Bryan: There are many definitions. First of all there is sort of a sociological definition and if you carried that to its extreme in terms of settlement, colonial history and all the rest of it, you have a pretty good case of including Florida and Louisiana in the Caribbean. That's the essence of the broadest definition. The other socio-cultural definition really involves the islands in the eastern Caribbean, the big islands in the north of the Caribbean, the coast of Mexico, Central America and the coasts of Colombia and Venezuela. Then there are (countries like) Guyana on the eastern coast of South America. So taken in a composite way those are the 37 countries that we're talking about.

You have tremendous economic differences from a rich Trinidad to a very powerful Venezuela to a Cuba who's potential has not been tapped, to a Mexico which is part of the North American frame of reference. So that is the diversity of the region and all these 37 countries are coming together in the Association of Caribbean States. The capital is in Trinidad and potentially as a trading block, this group of nations would be the fourth largest trading regime in the world. You're talking about a population of about 202 million, a GDP of about $502 billion and merchandise trade of about $180 billion, so it's not something to be sneezed at. So that is the essence of Caribbean integration. Barbados by itself does very well economically, but as part of the Association of Caribbean States it's more powerful.

Ballard: Collectively though, does everyone get along or are there struggles?

Bryan: There's always a struggle, and I think within an arrangement like that you will always find that there are subregional negotiating strategies. So essentially everything is possible through negotiation and diplomacy. That is part of my job . . . I'm one of those academics who fortunately over many years has been able to put much of my policy intention into practice and certainly see it evolve. My country, Trinidad, has 1 million people, but its literacy rate is 98 percent, which is much higher than anywhere else. Even Jamaica, which is in the middle of the scale in terms of literacy, is 76 percent.

That is one of the things that I would like to stress. We're talking about a region of the world that is traditionally the most democratic politically of all of Latin America. There are some exceptions like Cuba and Haiti, and you're not going to change the political culture overnight. Most of us, at least in the English-speaking Caribbean, have inherited the Westminster parliamentary systems, so we operate in the way in which the British operate and that has proven to be very good . . . the leaders are held accountable and I think that combination of democracy and of high educational levels contribute to the stability of this region.

Ballard: Are there problems in working with the U.S. in terms of the range of differences toward this country?

Bryan: Yes, there are problems. Let me take two that would illustrate. First, most Caribbean countries differ with the United States over its policy in respect to Cuba. The U.S. has had an embargo against Cuba for 35 years. Fidel Castro has outlasted eight American presidents. Caribbean countries have been trading with Cuba and carrying on business as usual. Not only that, the Europeans are doing the same, as is Canada, Mexico, everybody is in there. So oddly enough, the U.S. policy of having this embargo seems to be working against it with respect to Cuba because there are hordes of business people in the U.S. seeing these investments go by.

Secondly, there are trading arrangements. The North American Free Trade Agreement is in operation and theoretically it should be functioning very well, but there is domestic opposition in the U.S. to some issues. There are vested interests in the U.S. that simply go against the grain of these overall trading agreements. What I think is important is that in this new era the U.S. has to be very respectful of Caribbean wishes, in other words, a mutual sort of respect in coming to arrangements.

In the old Cold War days, the U.S. could say "I'm going to do this" because it had the power to do it and it had an adversary in the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union is no longer there; the U.S. is supreme. By the same token when you are supreme, then that's when you have to have some mutual respect. You're simply working at odds if you don't respect your closest partners. The Caribbean is big, it's also in Miami, New York, it's everywhere. I'm sure it's even in Nebraska.

Ballard: We're been talking about respect primarily in trade, but I assume this also has to happen politically an in other areas beyond that.

Bryan: I think it has to take place across the board. In my experience in the diplomatic world I have found that some people who come to negotiate issues have a view of the region which is not at all in the realm of reality. They assume most of us are sea and sand. They assume everybody is dressed in curious outfits ready to perform. They have visions of shacks rather than houses. So I think the information gap is there and that has to be rectified. The Japanese come into the Caribbean and nothing surprises them because they have studied it before and are more than a match when it comes to negotiating agreements. In some cases the Americans just insist on real power, and I don't think that does it anymore. This is what I'm suggesting, know your closest neighbor well, and if you do that, things are much easier.

Ballard: What about the Caribbean people? What's their knowledge of the U.S. like?

Bryan: Caribbean people are great travelers and most of the travel is done on jets. The international communications network, namely CNN, these things are routine. We see the same news that you do. More than that, there are tremendous Caribbean populations in Florida, New York and Houston, you name it, it's always been like that. A lot of Caribbean kids are now educated in the U.S. So, the Caribbean people know the U.S. better than the U.S. people know them. That of course gives you the advantage.

Ballard: I think Americans know quite a bit about Cuba and now even Haiti with all the events that have and are now taking place there.

Bryan: I don't know if I can agree that Americans know about Cuba. They know about Cuba from what they are told about Cuba. And remember, the information about Cuba doesn't come from the people in Cuba itself, it really comes from Cuban exiles in the U.S. who have considerable power. They have one agenda and that is that Fidel Castro must go. Nobody disagrees with that, maybe Fidel Castro has outlived his time. Communism is a dead issue, but where the information gap is, it is that they (Americans) are not aware of the changes within Cuba itself. The Europeans know those changes, the Latin American and Caribbean countries know those changes, thus they invest a lot of their resources into the Cuban economy, for a profit of course. So, I think we have to be cautious about the information.

Ballard: In the publicity for Thompson Forum speech, it says you ask the question "Are the Caribbean countries sitting on political and economic time bombs?" Are they, and if so, what does that mean?

Bryan: Some of them are and the reasons for that I think are clear. First of all there is a general euphoria in this world about free markets and about liberalization of economies. That euphoria is one where the developed countries say we cannot go on unless everyone opens their markets. So a number of Caribbean countries have gone ahead and shifted their economies from state-controlled to free markets, and liberalized their financial markets to make it easier for everybody to come in and buy land and trade and do all of those things.

But if they don't the United States reciprocates. They don't find that in other countries. Even with a strong agreement like NAFTA. So it's a case of the United States saying "Do as I say, but don't do as I do." There is a downside to this liberalization. And the down side is that most of these countries have made tremendous sacrifices of structural adjustment. They have in fact stopped subsidizing food stuffs, their health care systems, all of these things in order to make that transition to a market economy. Well, people get hurt in instances like that, and I don't need to tell you how much because when you look at your own country you realize how much that adjustment process in the U.S. is costing certain citizens.

Ballard: It basically creates gaps.

Bryan: It creates gaps and some people fall through the cracks. I don't need to tell you that the same thing is happening in the U.S., you see it every day. This a far different country than when I was here as a student in the '60s. So in this global scenario we all have the same problems and the Caribbean's problems are no different than any others in North America.

Ballard: Since you mentioned your days here as a student, what was it like being a graduate student at UNL in the late 1960s?

Bryan: I enjoyed my student days. Interestingly enough, there were a lot of Caribbean people here at the time. (Frank) Sevigne was a coach here at the time for athletics and he had the knack of being able to have on the Nebraska track squad most of the Olympic team from Trinidad and Jamaica. Even though it wasn't big, we had a very exciting foreign student community here in those days.

Ballard: As director of the North-South Center, what are some the major issues involving the Caribbean part of the world as we head into a new century. Is it drug trafficking, illegal immigrants, and maybe what are some of the positives?

Bryan: I think the location of the North-South Center in Miami is an ideal one. What I think is critical at the Center is that we not only sit on the hot button issues like drug trafficking, or trade or immigration, but we also get into long-term projects like the environment or immigration. Many of us see immigration in a very positive way. There doesn't need to be a Cuban or Haitian exodus. It's not in the DNA of these people to get in rafts and come across. Why don't we think of larger policy changes, and that's where we begin to influence the dialogue and that's what are prime objective is.

Looking forward to the future, a number of issues that are now seen as problems will not be problems maybe by the year 2005. By the year 2005 I think we should have a very broad trading arrangement in the Western Hemisphere patterned after NAFTA, which will make the dream of free trade a reality.

Secondly, I think immigration to the U.S. will not be cast in an unfavorable light. Immigration has always been a positive for the U.S., but when you have the kind of politics that you have now, hot button issues normally revert into negative impressions. If you look at the people who come legally, illegal immigration is another question, but those who come legally have contributed to society in enormous ways. I also think you'll have more democratic consensus throughout the hemisphere. Dictatorships will be a thing of the past. More importantly Americans will start to see the virtue of their own transnational possibilities.

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